Association of the Families Stirnimann/Stirnemann
|Circular No. 23||Ruswil - Juli 1997|
Love relatives and cousins, very honored members and friends of our family Association
"To be Rich at joys depends not on wealth, not on poverty, but on a being sufficient seed, content hearts. " With this quotation of Jeremias Gotthelf I would like to cordially welcome you, valuable members of our family association. Albert Bitzius alias J. Gotthelf had brought it at that time to the point. Genuine joy comes from it can be neither bought nor leased. Like that it is nevertheless actually also with our family Association. The joy in our family ancestry comes from the heart of each member and is perhaps unconscious looking up from the present of our own life. For me there can be therefore hardly financial still prestigious reasons for a membership. It is the joy in the knowledge around the solidarity in the surname, in the knowledge around same roots, Joy in history, joy in the meeting with humans of the same surname. In the sense I require to become richer you and me "... at joys... " with our Association of the families Stirnimann/Stirnemann.
As a new president I could some joys already experience, could I since my assumption of office approximately 30 new members nevertheless be called cordially welcome. The executive committee started in the autumn 96 an advertising writing in whole Switzerland. Now our connecting with initially 180 members increased in the year 1974 to the pleasing number of 300 members. Here would like to thank is all near and far quite cordially out for the participation in the family Association.
Now briefly to my person: As a seventh child of the Hans Stirnimann-Wermelinger blessedly and the Marie Agatha Stirnimann-Betschart (my twin brother Thomas is 30 minutes older than I!) was allowed I mean child and youth years on the farm cover honey in Ruswil to experience. My ancestors originate by the way father's side from Etzenerlen, mother's side from the Muothatal (Kt. Schwyz). after the Primary school and secondary level school in Ruswil completed I the College in Luzern. Whereupon I was active two years in Buttisholz, afterwards seven years in Ruswil. For two years and operate I live in the municipality Uffikon, which is situated between Sursee and Dagmersellen. During the writing of these lines I am still single, a civil status modification am approaching however briefly. By the participation in the music association Ruswil I maintain the contact to my birth and homeland municipality Ruswil.
At my first executive committee session of the last autumn I could win an impression from the executive committee work. The large, free application impressed and made me happy. In individual loads innumerable working hours for our Association are invested, and with Toni Stirnimann, Luzern as well as Josef Stirnemann, Adliswil, accounts of two further, new forces to be welcomed, I thank all quite cordially. Special thanks would like I my predecessor Josef Stirnimann, Ruswil, express, which was active as a president during 20 years. It is for me job and stimulus at the same time to lead together the " Association of the families Stirnimann/Stirnemann " successfully in the third decade of its existence in the next millenium. This way into the future however their assistance, is valuable members, still for our Association important. Help. I look forward now already to your participation.
With cordial thanks and the best desires
The president: Beat Stirnimann
The Master Fathers of the Stirnimanns of Ruswil and Neuenkirch
One of the most important personalities of the Ruswil Stirnimann family in the time before 1800 was Peter Stirnimann (1600-1709). He held the most important offices of the Twings (corresponds to the today's municipality), the administrative district and in the parish community Ruswil. At thirty-six years old Peter Stirnimann was appointed or selected the Court Sergeant or District Governor of the Administrative District Ruswil and acknowledged again and again as such every two years up to its death. As an owner of the farms Etzenerlen (115 Jucharten) and Saal (116.5 Jucharten) was Peter Stirnimann one of the richest men of the administrative district Ruswil. These few lines would like the substantial over this master father, from whom in the last year newsletter the speech was, in memory call.
In the following we deal with the sons of the Court Sergeant Peter Stirnimann as well as with the division from the father inherited ourselves two farms. From the six sons only three grew up: Johann Jakob, Johann Sebastian and Johann Augustin. The first name Johann or of the Hans' three sons is located only in the baptizing book. In the other church books and in national writing e.g. in the mortgages and purchase logs, the sons or brothers become in each case with the names Jakob, Sebastian (Baschi) and Augustin mentioned. Thus we hold it also in the following statements.
Court Sergeant Jakob Stirnimann
The first and at the same time most important son of the Court Sergeant Peter Stirnimann and his Mrs. Anna Brunner was Jakob. The baptizing book of the parish church Ruswil calls 1 March 1683 as date of his baptism. The numerous responsible offices, which the father provided already early and in his best years in the Twing and particularly in the service of the administrative district Ruswil, were the environment and the school, which shaped and formed also his oldest son Jakob. Already early Jakob Stirnemann in the purchase and division logs is mentioned as juror or an advocate. It is reminded of the fact that this official before court the interests of the plaintiffs deplored or represented. The juror was also the official appraiser of properties. In the years 1724-1736 Jakob Stirnimann male nurse i.e. trustee of the St. Kuemmernis is Friar. The legend hl. of the Kuemmernis or Wilgefortis, an alleged Portuguese king daughter, spread since that 14th Century almost in the whole German linguistic area. The statutes and until 1893 of the existing St. Kuemmernis created in Ruswil in the year 1608 - Friar calls the cleanliness of the Gemueoets and Hertzens " as their purpose ". From 1736 to 1752 Jakob Stirnimann male nurse was the Friar of our love Mrs., the most outstanding the damals16 Friars of the parish Ruswil. It is reminded of the fact that the Friar was connected on the closest with the church life always. The Friars maintained and promoted above all the religious life and customs and the practice of certain good factories. The members of certain Friars took care of the patients, the old persons and the dying and provided for of them a nice funeral, particularly in the plague times.
Like several of his relatives Jakob Stirnimann was also office father, i.e. army male nurse (still in our century Waisenvogt gennant). Particularly into the Teilugsprotokollen " the inheritance and the office father Jakob Stirnemann " is again and again mentioned. The office father represented the rights and interests of the orphans.
Since 1723, very probably however already beforehand the Etzenerler farmer Court Sergeant or Untervogt of the administrative district Ruswil was safe. Everything speaks for the fact that the lifelong political experience of the father and it by the population brought strongly the confidence smoothed also the way for the son. Like already the father, then also its son, particularly in the division logs, again and again mentioned as " more deer honor close eighth, pious, honoring ehrsame and wohlbescheidne Court Sergeant Jakob Stirnemann. The signature and the seal are shown above, with which the Court Sergeant Jakob Stirnimann explains one of farmer Jakob Meyer on 14 February 1738 on its farm in the Moos in Ruswil established mortgage as valid. This signature is the proof that the Court Sergeant Jakob Stirnimann could read and write, is enough for what at that time and still, particularly with the rural population, a rarity was. Jakob Stirnimann used the seal of his father's (P ST = Peter Stirnimann). The coat of arms shows the well-known own brand, beseitet is from one sechsstrahligen asterisk each.
Like already its father as well as the uncle Walter dressed also Jakob Stirnimann in the company Ruswil the rank of a second lieutenant. This testifies the Brigaderodel from the year 1723 concerning the brigades i.e. troop departments of Willisau, Rothenburg, (Bero =) Mimster, Ruswil, discharge book. On page 17 becomes as 2. Lieutenant of the Company Ruswil gennant: Court Sergeant Jacob Stirnimann of Etzenerlen.
On 5 February 1704 Jakob Stirnimann in the parish church Ruswil Rosina Eggenschwiler had married. The bridegroom was 21, the bride 18 years old. Rosina became the first (and only?) daughter of the farmer Gabriel Eggenschwiler and Maria Boesch on the stately farm Elischwand born. The baptizing book of the parish church calls 1 September 1686 as date of her baptism. Jakob Stirnimann had from his wife six sons, of whom Joseph, which oldest ones, which to Etzenerlen transferred paternal farm and was office with, and two daughters. In the next circular the speech will be from these.
Division of the farms Etzenerlen and Saal
After the death of the Court Sergeant Peter Stirnimann (+ 9 January 1709) and managed its three sons the Jakobs, Sebastian and Augustin possessed from the father inherited two farms (behind) Etzenerlen and Saal (usually new Sahl written) the 16 years long together. In the year 1725, probably on St Mathis (24 February) took the three brothers fly-end division forwards: The Jakobs and Sebastian transferred together the farm and the goods to Etzenerlen with two new houses, a barn, a Spyr and the following mats and pastures:
|die Husmatten die Rossweid||die Morgengab die Schüölimatt|
|das Rohr der Krumbaum||die Geisselermatt|
|die unter und ober Buochrnatt||die Breiten die Grossweid|
|der Burst die Rinderweid||die Eien das Baumgätli bei dem neuen Haus|
|das Steiweidli der Geissberg||die Brunmatt die Hellmatt|
|das Studenweidli ein Stuck ab der neuen Saalmatten|
From the farm Etzenerlen referred the following creditors annual soil interest and deliveries:
the hospital in Luzern
the Parish Ruswil,
above all donate (= lever maintenance) to choir gentleman pin the St. Michael in (Bero -) cathedral
the friendship of our love woman in Ruswil of the ministers in Ruswil
Sale of Sebastian Stirnimann
The Sale by Sebastian Stirnimann
On the same day Jakob Stirnimann bought out his brother Sebastian (Baschi), by promising him 2400 guldens " in Muenz of the city Luzern " and 2 Dublonen tip. Sebastian received the warranty that he will receive 2000 guldens in cash in one year on St Mathis (24 February) and the remaining 400 guldens in two annual contributions without interest. Sebastian, which was married since 1 January 1719 with Anna Maria Rucklin, was allowed to live still another one year long with its family in the new house, he received a cow and all for the Lebenunterhalt of his family necessary one.
On St Mathis 1728 acquired Sebastian of the brothers Claus and Jost Imgrueth for 6500 guldens derne Sässhof and Güter in Tan; this farm is approximate in the center between Rueediswil and Werthenstein.
Augustin Stirnimann inherits the farm in the new Saal
Since 15 November 1723 with Katharina Bucher married brother Augustin received the farm in the new Saal with house, barn and the following, stucco and Gueoetern, bordering east on Etzenerlen, ":
Haus- und Baumgarten das Stockinauh
die vordere Saalmatten die Grissenmatt-Matten
den äusseren und inneren Geissberg den Weyerboden
die hintere Saalmatten die Waldweid
das Höfli und Baumgarten die Saalweid
das 5aa1-Michelsweidli die Riedweid
die Schürweid die gross Weid
das Hölziiweidli den Lutacher (?)
die große Stockmatt die Neuweid
The following Luzerner Patrizier had mortgages on the farm in the Saal:
the Junkers captain Jost at the Rhyn blessed inheriting: 400 guldens
of the Junker hospital gentleman: 400 guldens
Junker and District Governor to the Gilgen: 400 guldens
Junker Ludwig to the AImend: 200 guldens
Mrs. KIara Balthasar: 400 guldens
the place of worship Werthenstein possessed a Glilt of 600 guldens
To the farm in the Saal 115 Jucharten open matte and feasting country, everything belonged and together been situated.
Augustin Stirnimann had obviously from the outset with financial difficulties to fight, nevertheless already sold it to 29. March 1727 a piece country named Weyerboden to the extent of 2 Jucharten for 300 guldens the master (supposed a craftsman) Leonz Staeger in Ruswil. On 24 February 1732 it established a mortgage in the amount of 500 guldens to favour of the Joseph Bueoelmann too strain-shrank on its farm. Two years later, i.e. on 24 February 1734, Augustin Stirnimann transferred and received its farm in the Saal by way of exchange to the Uoli Bueoelmann in the sunning waste dumps from this the Kastler property in the village Ruswil. Uoli Bueoelmann owed Augustin Stirnimann on 24 February 1734 the amount of 1307 guldens and 20 Schilling.
1.P. Rudolf Henggeler OSB, the church Bruderschaften and guilds lnnerschweiz. A-settles o.J., 8,266
2. Public records Luzern, documents 11 Ril 096.
3. Public records Luzern, Cod. 2135.8,17
4. Public records Luzern, validity and purchase logs of the office Ruswil, Bd. 4, 8.103ff.
Unemployment in the Office Furniture Factory
(continuation of the article " unemployed person before 60 years " in the circular Nr.19)
At this company Zimmerli I remained then three years. Last I was master there. In this operation 12 employees worked. The boss agreed upon monthly wages of 300 Franconias with me (at the beginning I had 80 black horses hourly wages). Then the war broke out in the year 1939. The junior of the company was a " studying ", which had locked the professional school for carpenters in Rosenheim, Germany. It was however member of the Nazi party (NSDAP) of Aargau. The Aargauer gentlemen, who were in this party, had spaces in the curtain industry in the cellar rented for an office. Because we manufactured office furniture in our company also, they bought a desk with us. With the hand wagon a colleague and I brought this furniture one in the evening (through the day that was not possible, because one had to operate in operation), over the Distel mountain to Aargau. There two gentlemen received us. We carried the new desk inside. One of the gentlemen spoke then to me: but you Mr. Stirnemann, them actually belonged to our party. Such efficient people, which are for others a model, are in our party looked up people. " He instructed us on that: here the old desk clears and supplies everything in the new one, I must urgently to a session. " We completed this job. Me when clearing a directory of all Nazi members from whole Switzerland fell into the hands. I kept and brought that for me it to the canton police. The commander praised me. Actually I brought this directory there, because I had a bad conscience. I felt obligated to make something because the Nazis was the enemies for our Switzerland at that time. I admitted however to the commander also that I had now little fear. At home again concerned, I supplied a trailer. To my Mrs. Sophie I said: " if it becomes brenzlig, disappears I and you packs the necessary things on the trailer and pulls with our small son Kurt direction inside Switzerland. " At that time there were many, which lead for safety reasons with their auto into this area. Some sold even their houses and left there. I had to then engage in the military and carried service out with the Airfield maintenance Detachement 10. We were assigned to a welschen flier troop. Our function was to maintain the airfield etc. The war took then fortunately an end.
I changed the workstation then, because I felt no more desire, with a former Nazi to work marriages. My new place was now a little further in front, with Zimmerli Paul, Modell-and Bauschreinerei. There I remained 25 years. I still provided the power of attorney last due to illness of the master. My son Kurt completed the carpenter teachings in the meantime at another company. Afterwards he operated in the same company as I. Then he attended the carpenter technical school in Biel. In this technical school suggested to it the technical instructor, carpenters Gysi, he is technical instructors to nevertheless once likewise become. But Kurt wanted however not and said to me: father, we inherited a carpenter's workshop ". I agreed with it. But thus then the large question began: " where "?
At this time I always in each case fished in Sempacher lake. For this purpose I had tinkered especially a ship from wood, which I stored in Nottwil at the family Scherrer. Then the thought came somehow to pull into this area of the Sempacher lake. I was made by a well-known person attentively on the fact that in Sempach land are available over there, which had been bought by the owner long as real record for the motorway. Thus I announced myself in the Kanzlei Sempach. The town clerk, Mr. Bucher, indicated to me that one could to use and one the country keep industry ready for this purpose here in this municipality. Owing to the obligingness of the municipality authorities I acquired then this country on favorable conditions. However also said that this property was not yet opened, neither road, must be nor water, still current. For the development costs we had to be responsible ourselves. Fortunately I had a single family house without large load and the sympathetic consideration of the bank of Sempach. The only condition was to place two deficiency guarantees. Son Kurt created the plans for the building and when building considered we the native craftsmen. For the mechanism of the carpenter's workshop we bought old machines, which were still efficient. Since I had always already something for mechanics remaining, I repaired these machines for themselves, replaced ball bearings etc. Us a well-known mechanic of engine works George Fischer AG was to me advisory in Brugg to the page. This brought me in each case constituents from its company, which were no longer used. Thus these were then built into our machines. We specialized in the production of office furniture. It succeeded to us to supply office furniture to the federal administration to Berne which we can do also today still, but with pressed prices. At boom times there was three companies to Berne supplied. Today naturally the competition is much larger. But owing to good quality and prompt supply we are today still considered, despite rather higher prices. Besides we were ready also in good times to produce practically excluding office furniture for the federal administration. We had specialized to develop the modernization of the office equipment in the administration ever further. Since in addition, today in the administration one saves, automatically fewer furniture are ordered. But it must and it continues also in this harder time.
Narration: Othmar Stirnemann
Editor: Josef Stirnimann
Over one its Hobby's refer we to an article in the circular Nr.12. thereby refers to Othmar with this topic again and again to the fact that in foreground always first the family and the business
were. If the time were still enough, the hobby came to the series.
The Stirnimann Family World Book
Under this strange title this year an American publishing house published 5 Family Heritage a book, which turns exclusively to the Stirnimann - under exclusion of the Stirnemann named Halbert ' -. The book published by the format of 27 x 21 cm counts 128 pages and in Switzerland in 6052 ago giswil/NW, Obkirch 5, at the completely translated price by Fr. 105. - - is offered. The name of the author or editor is strange to say not given.
It concerns itself here obviously over one that, as to assume is, numerous, after which pattern wrote " world books " resemble from those everyone a certain family are dedicated. Behind the whole enterprise is the North American sparkling wines of the Mormon, which call themselves as, church Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints". The large interest that at the family research been based on their faith that the families together-remain in the other world. Since 1846/47 Salt Lake City center is in the US State Utah the center of the municipalities spread today in all continents and missions of the Mormons.
Up to the introduction of the Swiss federal civil registers in the year 1876 the way of writing of the surnames Stirnimann and Stirnemann were not by any means uniform both in the church books and in the national registers. The same person or family was written as Stirnimann, and Stirnemann. Since the introduction of the Swiss federal civil registers there are those in the canton Luzern, particularly in Ruswil, Neuenkirch, Nottwil, Buttisholz, Knutwil and Pfaffrtau resident Stirnimann and in the canton Aargau the Stirnemann mainly resident in Graenichen. That, world book, from which the speech is here, addresses itself, as said, exclusive to the Stirnimann, which are to today in their large majority in the canton Luzern resident or better established.
A compilation of public information?
On the title page of the book is among other things: " this publication refers in no way to a certain Stirnimann family, but represents a compilation of public information. " In the introduction (S.1.1) is again of these information as a starting the speech. The paragraph concerned is literally shows here:
" this book was written, in order to help the particular to communicate and with its family strengthened identify themselves with family members. The following information can be only a starting point. It is a general overview of their surname, people, who likewise carry it, and a note, like your knowledge of family history and genealogy to extend can. "
In the following I sketch contents of the five sections of the book and make at the same time attentive to their lack.
Section I(S.1.1 if.) gives an overview of national history and population to Switzerland since its earliest beginnings up to the present. It is the speech of the Celtics, Romans, Germans and French, from the emergence and development of the confederation from the military great power to the neutrality. But for what this expenditure at history? Each family is certain in its homeland and in their people verwurzelt and can and must by these their origins be seen ago. But which the remarks carry over the Celtics, Romans, Germans, French and the early confederation with for the knowledge of history and genealogy of our family?
Section II(S.2.1 ff.) deals with the emergence and characteristic of the surnames not only Switzerland, but the whole world, even China and Japan. Also here the question: What and do help, at all a Luzerner and a Swiss are the special features of the surnames all these countries useful to our family?
The topic of chapter III (S.3.1. ff) is those coat of arms customer (Heraldic), in the individual history of the coats of arms, their emergence and award since the Middle Ages. Last in detail reported on the heraldry research, the relevant libraries and facilities of this type in most countries of Europe - also these complex notes and information concerning the coats of arms our family is not dependent. Since that 17th Century particularly by several seals testified coats of arms of the Luzerner Stirnimann is long well-known and published. Specialists the coat of arms customer give by the way a more than negative judgement off over this section to III.
Chapter IV (S.4.1 ff) answers the question to us interested in most: How do I experience something over my ancestors? On 28 pages become the many files, libraries, centers and offices, which historical and genealogical societies, unions and commissions of most countries in the world enumerated, which are necessary for the study of the families or useful. In the first place the main library of the Mormon in Salt Lake City center and their 19 international branches are naturally called. Follow Germany with 62, Austria with 17 and other European states with altogether 19 of such files or information centers. Also most states of north and South America are considered. The incomprehensibly the poor specification particularly is concerning Switzerland and for Luzern. Under the title, important files in Switzerland " (S.4.1O) become public records of the cantons Geneva, new castle, Waadt, Wallis (customs) and Tessin (Bellinzona) as well as the Swiss federal file called in Berne. And this furthermore is mentioned even at 2. Hardly place the file of the Swiss union for student history, well-known in the public, in 4528 Zuchwil. Public records Luzern, which guard the oldest and most important documents and historical sources of our family, are not simply called against it. It is just as incomprehensible that the historical societies of furthest countries are enumerated such as China and Japan, which Swiss society for Familienforschung/Société suisse d'études généalogiques is mentioned against it with no word.
Section V (S.5.3 ff) contains international Stirnimann directory on 31 pages, " from altogether 469 persons and their addresses. From these 469 name carriers 456 has their domicile in Switzerland, 221 in the canton Luzern. Abroad 13 name carriers, on these 3 each in Italy and Australia, 2 live each in France and Canada, per one in England, California and Florida. Are from that altogether 469 persons of this international directory 122 members of our family Association - I ask myself also here: What contributes this list of names to the clarification and study of history and genealogy of our family? All few of the aforementioned name carriers are each other related or know each other.
As much over contents and the numerous lack of the five sections of this family world book.
No doubt: The five sections offer nothing or almost nothing from the useful or necessary information or documents promised in the introduction for the study of our family.
The truth - the research our family
The study of history and descent of a family begins with us with the single dump of their names and data from baptize as well known -, marriage -, dying and year time books as well as from the civil registers of the Parishes or municipalities, in which the family concerned was or is resident and established. Are above all added the investigations in the state and different files, in those the reclaimable, the records of the court and passage of ownership, which interest Zinsroedel and mortgages us. After I had procured myself these bases in work for many years, I published 1972 in the magazine, already mentioned, Swiss society for Familienforschung/Société suisse d'études généalogiques " (39, 1972, page 57-98) of Swiss society for Familienforschung/Société suisse d'études généalogiques " a concentrated representation of my research results under the title:
Die Familie Stirnimann in den Kantonen
Luzern und Aargau
Mit besonderer Berücksichtigung des
Stammes von Ruswil
In English: The family Stirnimann in the cantons Luzern and Aargau with special consideration of the trunk of Ruswil
In the year 1973 this work appeared as special edition with an additional directory of the printed and sources, a bibliography, seven family trees of the Ruswil of family and two geographical cards of the domiciles of the family Stirnimann in the southern Aargau and northern canton Luzern as well as their oldest farms in Ruswil, in the Helyas publishing house in Beromuenster.
To my regret the anonymous author of the world book did not know from me wrote, to today only representation of history and genealogy of our family. Just as little it knows from Mario of Moos compiled and from the same Swiss society for family research in the series " working helps for family researchers in Switzerland No. 6 " published, two tapes global " family-historical bibliography of Switzerland ", 2. Edition: Zurich 1994. Each Swiss public records, each canton library would have the author of the world book on fundamental bibliography determining for the Swiss family research today and, which calls also my relevant publications (tape 2, page 497), attentively made. I would have expected more responsibility and scientific feeling by the author of a world book. It calls and recommends historical societies of furthest countries, with whose assistance we can extend our knowledge over our family history and genealogy, as it in the introduction writes, it however does not even know two-restrains factory with the continuous directory of all investigated families of Switzerland, also the users. How can one still serious-take such an author and its world book?
The members of our family Association received since its establishment in the year 1974 annual circular. In the sense of a supplement, a continuation and recess of printed family history almost each circular brought a contribution over individual time periods, trunks, branches, personalities and events to our family, particularly those of the Ruswil family. As before like that we are not in the slightest dependent also in future on the notes, the information and recommendations of the Mormons. In the end it is noted that also the section Luzern and inside Switzerland of the Swiss society for family research dealt with itself thoroughly with this world book and delivered a destroying judgement over the same. The more urgently we recommend to our valuable members to transfer them usually from Germany set the folders and purchase orders of the " Stirnimann World Book " to the waste-paper basket.
On the occasion of the last family conference our two members of many years Franz Stirnimann from Basel and Josef Stirnimann from Ruswil were appointed honorary members. Now the two beautifully written or drawn documents are present and them are personally presented. Again cordial congratulation. Here we show a " casting " of the text of the two documents:
In English: HONOR DOCUMENT the Association of the families Stirnimann/Stirnemann appointed at the conference from 8 September 1996 in Kaysersberg in the Elsass
Josef Stirnimann Haas real teacher in Ruswil in deep Dankbarbeit for into its deserving 19-jaehrigen activity the propagation and strengthening of the Association to its, achieved as a president
For all interested members of the association in October further training days will take place about " family research - concretely ". Under the expert direction of Professor Dr. Joseph Stirnimann, Luzern, are experienced you, how one operates professional family research. It is first intended to meet in one Saturday afternoon. Possible data are 4/18 or 25 October 1997. If you have interest, I ask you to announce itself immediately in writing (exact address and telephone number) to me. Log-on are received to at the end of August.
With best thanks and friendly greeting.
The president requests contributions, messages and suggestions for the next circular!